I have now been looking
for a job for a year, with more than 200 applications sent.
我找工作已經一年了，寄出了超過200份申請。
00:06
How much longer will I be
kind of stuck in this limbo?
我還要多久才能擺脫這種不上不下的困境？
00:10
I guess between school and,
you know, adulthood.
我想，這是在學業和，你知道的，成年之間。
00:14
Most people I know have been impacted
by layoffs at least once, if not twice.
我認識的大多數人都曾受到裁員的影響，至少一次，甚至兩次。
00:19
Hey, it's Hannah here.
大家好，我是Hannah。
00:20
Welcome to What in the World, the
podcast for all of your news, trends and talking points
from the BBC World Service.
歡迎收聽「天下事」，這是BBC國際頻道為您帶來所有新聞、趨勢和熱門話題的播客節目。
00:27
Applying for jobs is really tough.
找工作真的很艱難。
00:29
You've got
to scour the internet for ads and then put in all of that time
and mental energy on an application, and that's before you've even found
out if you've got an interview.
But some people have been finding
that process even harder than normal.
但有些人發現這個過程比平常更困難。
00:42
They've been putting in loads of
applications and never hearing back.
他們遞交了大量的申請，卻從未收到回覆。
00:46
And we've all heard the chat
about AI taking our jobs.
我們都聽過關於AI搶走我們工作的說法。
00:49
And there have been some recent studies
that suggest that AI is making it harder for younger people
and grads to get their first jobs.
最近有些研究顯示，AI讓年輕人和應屆畢業生更難找到第一份工作。
00:56
So is AI after your job
and what can you do to adapt?
那麼AI是不是盯上了你的工作，你又能如何適應呢？
01:04
I'm speaking to Nathalie Jimenez,
a BBC reporter in New York.
我正在與Nathalie Jimenez對話，她是BBC駐紐約記者。
01:07
Hey, Nathalie.
嗨，Nathalie。
01:08
Welcome back.
歡迎回來。
01:09
Hi.
嗨。
01:09
Thank you so much for having me.
非常感謝您的邀請。
01:11
Okay, so firstly this chat
about AI taking entry level jobs.
好的，首先，關於AI搶走入門級工作的說法。
01:15
How big of a problem is it?
這問題有多嚴重？
01:16
What do the studies say?
研究怎麼說？
01:18
So I mean the quick answer is yes.
所以我的意思是，快速的答案是肯定的。
01:21
We're going
through an AI disruption phase.
我們正經歷一個 AI 顛覆的階段。
01:24
That's the phrase
that you're often going to hear.
這就是你經常聽到的說法。
01:26
So yes, AI is starting to replace jobs
and particularly entry level jobs.
所以是的，AI 正在開始取代工作，特別是入門級的工作。
01:31
Those are the first
on the chopping block.
這些是首當其衝的。
01:33
And that's because they're often
administrative, they're digital, they're repetitive.
這是因為它們通常是行政性的、數位化的、重複性的。
01:40
They're basically jobs
that AI can learn quite easily, make more efficient, go faster.
基本上是 AI 可以輕鬆學習、提高效率、加快速度的工作。
01:46
That's very attractive to companies
that are starting to look to cut costs.
這對開始尋求削減成本的公司非常有吸引力。
01:50
So yes, young people
are suffering the most.
所以是的，年輕人受到的影響最大。
01:52
And we see that in the numbers too.
我們也在數字中看到了這一點。
01:54
Stanford did a study and it said that since late 2022, right when ChatGPT
went big, people aged 22 to 25 have seen a 13% drop in jobs in roles
that are easy for AI to handle.
So I'm talking software development,
marketing, customer service.
我指的是軟體開發、行銷、客戶服務。
02:12
Meanwhile, older workers
are not affected in the same way.
同時，年長員工沒有受到同樣的影響。
02:15
So that's why
the study essentially calls young people 'canaries
in the coal mine'.
這就是為什麼這項研究基本上稱年輕人為「礦井裡的 canary」。
02:20
There's a real problem because
if people aren't being accepted at entry level,
then they can't progress up the chain and then they can't get
the expertise to get to those kind
這是一個真正的問題，因為如果人們無法進入入門級職位，
02:28
of more secure mid and top level
jobs, the ones where they have those soft skills that
can't be imitated or replaced by AI.
他們就無法晉升，也無法獲得專業知識來進入那些更穩定的中高階職位，那些擁有 AI 無法模仿或取代的軟技能的職位。
02:36
And of course, this isn't
the only thing that's affecting the US job market at the moment.
當然，這並不是影響美國就業市場的唯一因素。
02:41
What are some of the other things that
have been going on for young people?
對年輕人來說，還有哪些其他因素在發生？
02:44
Right.
對。
02:44
So this is kind of part
of a bigger shift.
這可以說是更大轉變的一部分。
02:46
So we obviously have
macroeconomic factors.
所以我們顯然有宏觀經濟因素。
02:48
So after the pandemic there was
a chilling in the job market.
疫情過後，就業市場出現了降溫。
02:51
Basically people are hiring less.
基本上，人們的招聘需求減少了。
02:53
So that's one of the issues
that we're dealing with too.
所以這也是我們正在處理的問題之一。
02:55
There is an oversaturated market.
市場已經飽和。
02:57
More people have college degrees so there are more people applying
for administrative jobs, less so, you know, jobs in in retail.
擁有大學學位的人越來越多，所以申請行政職位的人也越多，而零售業的職位則相對較少。
03:06
Those jobs in retail, in healthcare, the ones that need
a little bit more human interaction, they're still going,
people are still hiring.
零售業、醫療保健業這些需要更多人際互動的職位，它們仍在運作，人們仍在招聘。
03:14
Whereas the ones that need maybe, you know, a college degree
in the sense of computer science, that was a job that was very,
very in demand
相較之下，那些可能需要，你知道，電腦科學的大學學位的工作，幾年前曾是極度搶手的職位，
03:22
a few years ago,
now that's starting to decline.
幾年前，
03:25
So, yeah, the macroeconomic shifts right
now in the economy, it's not great.
現在那開始下滑了。
03:30
And then AI and then an oversaturated
market, it's like the perfect storm.
所以，是的，目前經濟中的宏觀經濟轉變，情況並不樂觀。
03:35
And let's hear from some
of you guys who got in touch and are looking for work.
然後是人工智能，再加上飽和的市場，簡直是完美的風暴。
03:38
This is Zola in France.
讓我們聽聽一些與我們聯繫並正在找工作的人的聲音。
03:40
I work in the fields of arts
and culture.
這是來自法國的 Zola。
03:43
I hold two master's degrees,
one in political and social sciences and another one in cultural policy
and administration.
我在藝術和文化領域工作。
03:50
I have now been looking
for a job for a year with more than 200 applications sent.
我擁有兩個碩士學位，一個是政治社會科學，另一個是文化政策與管理。
03:57
I think that on my part.
我現在已經找了一年的工作，投遞了超過 200 份申請。
03:59
There are several frustrations that I'd like to highlight
within this job hunting process.
我認為就我個人而言。
04:05
The lack of formal answers
from employers, the disregard for experiences linked
to internship or traineeships,
or even voluntary contexts.
在這個求職過程中，有幾點令人沮喪之處，我想提出來。
04:14
I do not believe that AI should or can
truly replace an artist or a playwright, but it has been increasingly used
to do so in several cases.
我不認為 AI 應該或能夠真正取代藝術家或劇作家，但在某些情況下，它已被越來越多地用於此目的。
04:24
And so for me, it is a growing
political and ecological concern.
因此對我來說，這是一個日益增長的政治和生態問題。
04:28
And we got this from Laura in the US.
我們從美國的 Laura 那裡收到了這個。
04:30
I just know so many people applying
to jobs right now.
我現在認識好多人都在找工作。
04:34
And right, like every company,
not even tech anymore, right?
而且，對吧，就像每家公司一樣，甚至不再只是科技業了，對吧？
04:38
The federal government,
entertainment, media, consulting, finance,
they're all laying off people.
聯邦政府、娛樂業、媒體業、顧問業、金融業，他們都在裁員。
04:44
So every industry is, you know,
getting impacted.
所以每個行業都，你知道的，受到影響。
04:48
And right when more people are laid off,
more people are looking for jobs, but there just aren't enough spots
for everyone.
而且當越來越多人被裁員時，就有越來越多人找工作，但就是沒有足夠的職位給每個人。
04:55
I think it's so tough for
young people to find jobs right now.
我認為現在年輕人找工作非常困難。
04:59
Because right
when companies are laying people off, they're usually laying off
the most junior people, right?
因為當公司裁員時，他們通常會裁掉最資淺的人，對吧？
05:05
So they lay off the 20 somethings
who just started working, right?
所以他們裁掉那些剛開始工作的二十幾歲的人，對吧？
05:09
That's what happened to me.
這就是發生在我身上的事。
05:10
When they laid off my team at Google, it was all the newest hires, right?
當他們在 Google 裁掉我的團隊時，全都是最新進的員工，對吧？
05:15
So everyone, basically
everyone in their 20s got let go.
所以每個人，基本上所有二十幾歲的人都被解僱了。
05:18
I feel like most people
I know have been impacted by layoffs at least once,
if not twice, if not twice.
我覺得我認識的大多數人至少被裁員影響過一次，甚至兩次，甚至兩次。
05:25
And here is Tiffany,
a recent graduate from New York.
這是來自紐約的應屆畢業生 Tiffany。
05:28
The company that I worked at,
I worked at Apple when I was an intern last summer.
我工作的公司，我去年夏天在 Apple 實習。
05:33
They didn't have the headcount for
another, like a full time employee.
他們沒有多餘的人力來聘請另一位，像是全職員工。
05:38
And there are
a lot less new grad opportunities.
而且應屆畢業生的機會少了很多。
05:40
There used to be
more specific new grad programmes out there for seniors to apply to.
以前有更多專門為大學高年級生申請的應屆畢業生專案。
05:46
Sometimes I'll feel more motivated
and hopeful, especially
if I've been interviewing or like I'm in like the later ends
of an interview stage,
有時候我會覺得更有動力、更有希望，尤其是我正在面試，或者處於面試階段的後期。
05:55
I'll start feeling more hopeful, like
imagining myself in this job already.
我會開始覺得更有希望，就像已經想像自己在這個職位上了一樣。
06:00
But other times, you know,
like, I'll be like waking up in the middle of the night or like,
I can't sleep and I'm just thinking about how much longer will I be
kind of stuck in this limbo, I guess,
So it is a little sad sometimes, but
I think it helps that I'm not alone.
所以有時候會有點難過，但我想我並不孤單，這有幫助。
06:20
And there are a lot of other people
going through the same thing.
而且還有很多人也經歷著同樣的事情。
06:23
And talking about what some of the
big companies have said, you know, I've seen things
from Duolingo and Amazon talking about how how AI is going to change
the way they hire in the future.
談談一些大公司說了什麼，你知道，我看到過來自 Duolingo 和 Amazon 的消息，他們談論 AI 將如何改變他們未來的招聘方式。
06:31
What is the message being sent out
from these big companies right now?
這些大公司現在發出的訊息是什麼？
06:34
So Amazon's CEO was pretty direct in a message he sent to employees
back in June.
所以 Amazon 的 CEO 在六月發給員工的訊息中相當直接。
06:40
He basically said that generative AI is
going to reduce the corporate workforce over the next few years
quite significantly.
他基本上說，生成式 AI 將在未來幾年顯著減少企業員工。
06:48
And that doesn't mean
they're not going to hire anyone new.
這並不意味著他們不會僱用新人。
06:51
They're still going
to bring in people to teams that are maybe
a little bit more AI heavy.
他們仍然會將人引進到可能更側重 AI 的團隊。
06:57
But they expect to need fewer humans
in general, and that's going to land
on youngest staff the most, again, because they're doing
these repetitive jobs.
但他們預計總體上需要更少的人力，這將對最年輕的員工影響最大，因為他們正在做這些重複性的工作。
07:07
But the ones that need less judgment,
less critical thinking, that's going to be replaced by AI, that's where
they're going to want to save money.
但那些需要較少判斷力、較少批判性思維的工作，將被 AI 取代，這就是他們想要省錢的地方。
07:15
At Duolingo, the CEO
has said pretty much the same thing.
在 Duolingo，CEO 說了差不多同樣的話。
07:18
They're AI first now.
他們現在是 AI 優先。
07:21
They already cut contractors,
they're striking employees.
他們已經裁掉了外包人員，他們正在解僱員工。
07:25
And not only that,
but they're actually using AI as part of their evaluation process.
不僅如此，他們實際上還將 AI 作為其評估流程的一部分。
07:30
So they're looking
at how their employees are using AI in their day to day
to make themselves more efficient.
所以他們正在觀察他們的員工如何在日常工作中利用 AI 來提高效率。
07:36
So it's not
just enough to do your tasks well.
所以僅僅把任務做好是不夠的。
07:39
The company now wants you to prove
that you're using AI, and you're thinking about how to improve
the work you're doing with AI tools.
公司現在要求你證明你確實在使用 AI，並且正在思考如何利用 AI 工具來改進你正在做的工作。
07:48
So before they approve new hires, managers are also going to have
to convince basically the company why AI can't do it
and why they need a human.
因此，在批准新員工之前，經理們也必須向公司證明，為什麼 AI 無法勝任這項工作，以及為什麼他們需要人類。
07:59
But AI is also changing the application
process for people going for these jobs.
但 AI 也正在改變求職者的申請流程。
08:05
Both in terms of how like the
computers are now choosing, sorting through the CVs, sorting through
tapes that people might send in.
在電腦現在如何選擇、篩選履歷、篩選人們可能寄來的錄影帶方面。
08:12
So actually choosing who might make
it to interview, as well as people using AI to be able
to write their CVS and applications and making it harder
for them to to stand out.
實際上是選擇誰可能進入面試，同時人們也利用 AI 來撰寫他們的履歷和申請，這使得他們更難脫穎而出。
08:22
Yeah, exactly.
是的，沒錯。
08:23
I mean, basically
the job application process, and you'll hear this
from a lot of young hires, people in the workforce,
that it is changing.
我的意思是，基本上求職流程，你會從許多新進員工、職場人士那裡聽到，它正在改變。
08:31
Basically,
when you used to apply for a job, people used
to be involved pretty quickly.
基本上，當你過去申請工作時，人們會很快地參與進來。
08:37
They used to look at your resume.
他們會查看你的履歷。
08:40
They used to maybe give you a call,
skim, you know, your skills.
他們可能會打電話給你，快速瀏覽你的技能。
08:44
But now for lots of companies,
the first reader is an algorithm.
但現在對許多公司來說，第一位審閱者是演算法。
08:48
It's AI.
是 AI。
08:48
Resumes are
getting scanned by AI for keywords.
AI 會掃描履歷以尋找關鍵字。
08:52
Some firms are using AI chatbots
to ask screening questions.
有些公司正在使用 AI 聊天機器人來提出篩選問題。
08:56
Some AI programmes are even analysing
video interviews to score your answers.
有些 AI 程式甚至會分析視訊面試來評分你的答案。
09:01
So by the time a human actually looks
at your application, you've already been ranked by
a machine.
因此，當人類實際查看你的申請時，你已經被機器評級了。
09:07
So essentially, AI is going to be
part of the most important segment of the hiring process,
which is the beginning.
所以基本上，AI 將成為招聘流程中最重要環節的一部分，也就是開頭。
09:15
So a lot of people,
even in my close circle, the way that you're applying
for a job has changed.
所以很多人，即使在我親近的圈子裡，你申請工作的方式也已經改變了。
09:20
Like you're going to look
at the keywords that you need to put in your application
to make sure that you get flagged or chosen by these AI tools.
就像你會查看你在申請中需要放入的關鍵字，以確保你被這些 AI 工具標記或選中。
09:28
It's very formulaic.
這非常公式化。
09:29
That's why a lot of my friends are like,
'I don't want to write a cover letter, I just want to,
you know, go into my resume and put in those keywords that I need
to get chosen' because they know
這就是為什麼我的很多朋友都說：
09:37
that a person is not going to look at
their application until much later.
申請者要很久以後才會被審閱。
09:41
Now let's hear the view from India.
現在讓我們聽聽來自印度的觀點。
09:43
I'm speaking to Varun Mayya, who's a YouTuber and founder of
the generative AI company Aeos.
我正在和 Varun Mayya 對話，他是一位 YouTuber，也是生成式 AI 公司 Aeos 的創辦人。
09:49
Hi.
你好。
09:49
Hi.
你好。
09:49
Thank you for inviting me.
謝謝你邀請我。
09:50
Yeah, it's great to speak to you.
是的，很高興能和你對話。
09:52
So you're based in India.
所以你人在印度。
09:54
How is AI affecting
people's jobs there, and which are the industries
that are most affected?
AI 在那裡如何影響
10:00
To be very honest, I don't think AI has
really affected too many jobs in India, except for a little bit
of exposure in software in India.
說實話，我不認為 AI 真正影響了印度太多工作，除了在軟體領域有一點點
10:07
Salaries aren't really,
really high, so even if you are using a tool, an AI tool, you'd still want a human being
to sort of use that tool and run it,
薪資其實沒有很高，
10:16
because the person has accountability,
the person has context.
因為那個人要負責，
10:19
But there's also
this huge section of people in India and all over the world that,
you know, for lack of a better word, their only job is to translate
somebody else's instructions.
但在印度和全世界也有
10:29
Somebody else has made those decisions,
has decided how it's going to be solved, and they're just translating that
into code.
別人已經做出了決定，
10:35
You know, the original use case
for transformer was - the technology behind LLMs (Large Language Models)
- was for translation.
你知道，Transformer 最初的用途
10:41
So if you are doing that last piece,
somebody else has come up with the idea, somebody else has written the spec,
somebody else is telling you this is exactly how you need to solve it,
this is the algorithm you need to use,
所以如果你在做最後這一步，
10:51
and then you're writing the code
for it, yeah, then you're in trouble.
然後你為它編寫程式碼，
10:54
I think we've had zero people
in the team, in my avatar team,
that have lost their jobs.
我認為我們團隊裡，在我這個頭像團隊裡，
11:00
So we've actually had more work
and a larger team.
事實上，我們的工作量更多，團隊也更大。
11:02
In fact, the average creator,
about two million followers across Instagram, YouTube, would have
a team about ten, 12 people.
It's about 16 people
because the quantity of work.
大約有十六人，因為工作量很大。
11:12
We're also
in a very hyper connected world.
我們也身處在一個高度互聯的世界。
11:14
So this is not ten years ago where you'd
get like three or four opportunities.
所以這不是十年前，你只會得到三、四個機會。
11:18
Now you're getting like 30,
40 opportunities a month.
現在你每個月會得到三、四十個機會。
11:20
You want to take all of them on.
你會想抓住所有這些機會。
11:21
So we keep expanding the team to
absorb some of those opportunities.
所以我們不斷擴大團隊，以抓住其中一些機會。
11:25
Varun, I want to bring it back
to grads and grad jobs because there is relatively high
youth unemployment in India.
Varun，我想把話題帶回畢業生和畢業生工作，因為印度年輕人的失業率相對較高。
11:32
I think it's about 16% of under 24.
我認為二十四歲以下的人約有百分之十六。
11:35
So I want to ask you,
given all of the changes to the job market and the technology
that we have available, and particularly these roles
that we've talked about,
所以我想問你，鑑於就業市場的所有變化，以及我們現有的技術，特別是我們討論過的這些職位，
11:42
the ones that
could easily be replaced by AI, what advice would you give to a grad
or a student or a young person trying to get a job
right now?
那些很容易被AI取代的職位，你會給現在正在找工作的畢業生、學生或年輕人什麼建議？
11:52
In all of these changes.
在所有這些變化中。
11:54
What I found to be really great
for youngsters is to look at some, is to look at an industry
that's growing really fast, where there's increasing demand,
but low supply of good talent
or the supply of tools,
you know, are not very good.
或者工具的供應，你知道，不是很好。
12:08
The tools are not very competent
at, you know, and you feel you have a shot
at beating those tools, not just today,
but for the next two or three years.
這些工具不是很稱職，你知道，你覺得你有機會擊敗這些工具，不只是今天，而是未來兩三年。
12:16
Varun, thank you so much
for speaking to us.
Varun，非常感謝你接受我們的採訪。
12:17
Thank you for for having me.
謝謝你們邀請我。
12:18
Nathalie, what would your message be
to people who are graduating now in this ever changing world?
Nathalie，對於在這個瞬息萬變的世界中即將畢業的人，你的訊息會是什麼？
12:23
See, AI as your co-pilot.
將AI視為你的副駕駛。
12:25
AI is going to take care of the
menial tasks, the repetitive tasks.
人工智慧將會處理那些瑣碎的任務、重複性的任務。
12:28
Now this is actually giving you an
opportunity, for example, in college, to maybe study things that are a
little bit more considered soft skills.
現在這實際上給你一個機會，例如在大學裡，去學習一些被認為是軟技能的東西。
12:36
So again, you're going
to study computer science.
所以，你又要去讀電腦科學嗎？
12:39
Why don't you go into philosophy?
你為什麼不去讀哲學呢？
12:40
Why don't you go into psychology?
你為什麼不去讀心理學呢？
12:42
What basically experts are saying right
now is what's valuable are soft skills, critical thinking, judgment,
essentially what makes us human.
專家們現在基本上說的是，有價值的是軟技能、批判性思維、判斷力，本質上就是那些使我們成為人的特質。
12:51
So if you can tap into that, if you
can tap into what AI doesn't have, what we can add to the AI process, you're actually maybe going to get
a more fulfilling job experience.
And again, industries
like the health care industry or even the green tech industry
and what I mean by that is like, you know, let's say
solar panel construction,
再者，像醫療保健產業，甚至是綠色科技產業——我指的是，你知道，像是太陽能板的建造——
13:11
you're going to want to go to
these industries that are using AI, but that also need people in order
to think about the ethics of it, in order to think about
how to improve these AI systems,
你會想進入這些使用人工智慧，但也需要人們思考其倫理、思考如何改進這些人工智慧系統的產業，
13:21
we're really going to need to tap
into who we are as humans and what makes us human in order to
stay competitive in the job market.
我們真的需要善用我們作為人類的本質以及使我們成為人的特質，才能在就業市場中保持競爭力。
13:29
Nathalie.
娜塔莉。
13:30
Thank you.
謝謝。
13:31
Thank you.
謝謝。
13:32
That's it from us.
我們的節目到此為止。
13:32
I hope
you've enjoyed today's episode.
希望您喜歡今天的節目。
13:34
Please do check out some
of our other ones and also like, share, follow, subscribe.
請務必查看我們其他的節目，也請按讚、分享、追蹤、訂閱。
13:39
You can find us right here
on YouTube.
您可以在YouTube上找到我們。
13:40
Five days a week.
每週五天。
13:41
And two of those days
we are chatting away here in the studio
with some of your favorite guests.
其中兩天，我們會在錄音室裡與您最喜歡的一些來賓暢談。
13:47
I'm Hannah, this is What in the World
from the BBC World Service.
