00:00
welcome to the education of a financial planner where we look at the major Concepts and financial planning through
歡迎來到財務規劃師的教育課程，在這裡我們將透過兩位正在學習規劃流程以及如何幫助客戶實現
00:04
the lens of two Quant investors who are learning the ropes of the planning process and how to help clients achieve
長期目標的量化投資者的視角，來審視財務規劃中的主要概念。與我們一起學習，經驗豐富的財務規劃師 Matt Ziegler 將協助我們理解
00:09
their long-term goals learn along with us at experienced financial planner Matt Ziegler helps us understand the most
影響我們所有人的最重要財務規劃概念，以及我們如何應用這些概念來在我們的財務生活中獲得最佳結果。
00:14
important financial planning Concepts that impact all of us and how we can apply them to achieve the best outcomes
在每一集節目中，我們將從基礎開始深入探討一個主要的財務規劃概念，
00:19
in our financial lives in each episode we will work through one major financial planning concept from the ground up and
並學習如何在現實世界中應用它。從退休規劃、大學儲蓄、稅務到遺產規劃，我們將涵蓋
00:24
learn how we can apply it in the real world from retirement to college savings to taxes to estate planning we will
廣泛適用於我們日常生活的主題。希望您能加入我們的學習之旅。
00:29
cover a wide range of topics that apply to each of our everyday lives we hope you will join us in our Learning Journey
Justin Carpino 和 Jack Forehand 是 Lydia Capital Management 的負責人。Matt Ziegler 是 Sunpoint Investments 的董事總經理。
00:35
Justin Carpino and Jack forehand are principals at the Lydia Capital Management Matt Ziegler is managing
本播客中表達的觀點不一定反映 Lydia Capital 或 Sunpoint Investments 的意見。
00:40
director at some point Investments the opinions expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the opinions of
本播客中的任何資訊不應被視為
00:45
the Lydia capital or some point Investments no information on this podcast should be construed as
投資建議。播客中討論的證券可能是客戶、Lydia Capital 或 Sunpoint Investments 的持股。
00:50
investment advice Securities discussed in the podcast may be Holdings of clients a validity capital or suncoin
Matt：然後只剩下兩位，就剩我們兩個了，你想唱嗎？
00:55
Investments Matt and then there were two just the two of us do you want to sing
Matt：《Just the Two of Us》（只有我們倆），喔，那裡，我們可以唱那首歌，我是說，我們至少先/save the songs for later/，先來進入正題吧。
01:02
Just the Two of Us oh there you go we could sing that let's say let's save the songs for at least let's get into it a
我知道這裡會有一些歌曲的引用，但我們的另一位主持人 Jack 正和他的家人去度一個
01:07
little bit I know there's going to be some song references in here but uh our other co-host Jack is away uh with his
他非常需要且應得的假期，我們今天就不找他了，但他也是在花時間陪伴家人。
01:14
family on a much needed and deserved vacation and we're going to bring that in today but uh he's spending some time
所以在這個夏日的星期四下午，就只有你和我，不過希望我們倆之間能有一場很好的討論。
01:21
with his family as well so it's it's you and I on this uh Thursday afternoon in the summer but um this is going to be
我很興奮，我本來就想找你聊聊這些，所以這總是一集好節目的保證。
01:28
hopefully a good good discussion between the two of us I'm excited I would be wanting to have this conversation with
我想聽聽你對這其中一些事情的看法。
01:34
you outside of doing this so that's always that's always the promise of a good episode I would want to hear your
是啊，很好。你知道我們在《財務規劃師教育》中已經討論過很多不同的主題，
01:40
takes on some of this stuff yeah nice you know we've talked about a lot of different topics on educational
我們從目標空間規劃開始，談到了退休的各個階段，我們...
01:46
financial planner I mean we started with Goal space planning uh we got into all the different stages of retirement we
理財規劃師，我是說，我們從目標空間規劃開始，談到了退休的各個階段，我們
01:54
talked about annuities we talked about taxes we've talked about asset allocation and asset location but
我們談過年金、談過稅務、也談過資產配置和資產配置地點，但是
02:00
you know I think when you think about the common denominator or common thread
我認為當你思考其中的共同點或共同主線時
02:06
in all of that it really comes down to the discipline of being able to follow those plans because if you
其實歸結到能否遵循這些計畫的紀律，因為如果
02:15
don't have the discipline then everything basically just falls apart and so that's where we wanted to kind of
你沒有紀律，那麼一切都會基本崩潰，所以這就是我們今天想
02:22
have this talk today around let's talk about some of the topics that we've discussed and think about how discipline
來談談的原因，讓我們談談一些我們討論過的主題，並思考紀律
02:31
plays a role in there and try to look at it through the lens of why discipline is important so you know let me ask you
如何在其中發揮作用，並嘗試透過為何紀律很重要的視角來看待它，所以，讓我問你
02:40
when you hear the word discipline in this context of financial planning what do you think about
當你在財務規劃的背景下聽到「紀律」這個詞時，你會想到什麼
02:47
so when I when I hear the word discipline my gut reaction is discipline is decisions plus process so decisions
所以當我聽到「紀律」這個詞時，我的直覺反應是紀律等於決策加上流程，所以決策
02:56
plural plus a process meaning we have a North star that we're aiming for because we
是複數的，加上一個流程，意思是我们有一個北極星（目標）作為努力的方向，因為如果我們
03:02
don't have a discipline without having this North Star to guide us there's uh I know you said I have to wait on song
沒有這個指引我們的北極星，我們就無法建立紀律。呃，我知道你說我得等歌曲
03:09
references but I kept thinking of that gang Star song discipline so maybe a little edgy for 2023 less edgy for 19.99
引用，但我一直在想那首 Gang Starr 的歌「Discipline」，所以對 2023 年來說可能有點前衛，對 1999 年來說就沒那麼前衛
03:17
in some of the subject matter but uh it was basically this thing the just because I want to doesn't mean that I
在某些主題上，但呃，它基本上是在說這件事：僅僅因為我想要，並不意味著我
03:24
will and it's this idea that Guru is getting across to us where it's like just because I want to doesn't mean that
會去做，這是 Guru 想要傳達給我們的理念，就像是：僅僅因為我想要，並不意味著
03:29
I'll do this thing I have this North Star so I have this discipline hence the name of the song Because I can make the
我會做這件事，我有我的北極星，所以我有我的紀律，這就是這首歌名稱的由來。因為我可以做出
03:37
choice I can make the decision right now and pick which path I'm gonna go down so when I hear discipline and when I
選擇，我可以現在就做出決定，選擇我要走哪條路。所以當我聽到紀律，當我
03:43
think about discipline at work I'm always thinking about helping clients with a discipline it's we have a process
思考工作中的紀律時，我總是想著如何幫助客戶建立紀律，這就是我們有一個流程
03:50
and the process means every choice is framed in the perspective of some North Star so that we're never making a
而這個流程意味著每一個選擇都是以某個北極星的視角來框架的，這樣我們就不會只在當下做
03:58
decision exclusively in time every decision we're making is overtime now you you're living in Validia Capital
決定，我們做的每一個決定都是著眼於長期的。你現在在 Validia Capital
04:07
with systematic quantitative investing strategies and stuff like that so you know this works too when you hear
工作，使用系統性的量化投資策略等等，所以你知道這也適用。當你聽到
04:15
discipline what do you think of yeah so from our process there's there's two things that I just like think of
紀律時，你會想到什麼？是的，從我們的流程來看，有兩件事我會想到
04:22
there's one the discipline that we have when we build investment strategies so that's and that's an
我們在建立投資策略時有一套紀律，那就是
04:28
it's in every step of the way every way that we build a portfolio there it's discipline and systematic so the
在我們建構投資組合的每一步、每一個環節，都講求紀律與系統性，所以
04:36
universe definition how big the portfolio is the actual investment criteria being used to select the stocks
包括 universe 的定義、投資組合規模多大、用來選股的實際投資標準
04:43
the stop loss criteria how to try to avoid value traps how we Implement these strategies tax efficiently the
停損標準、如何避免價值陷阱、如何以節稅方式有效執行這些策略、
04:49
rebalancing dates so there's a bunch of decisions but that are effectively disciplines like the
再平衡的日期，所以有一連串的決策，但這些都是有效的紀律，就像你
04:57
point you made that are sort of embedded in the investment process into how we construct portfolios now from a client's
提到的觀點，這些都內嵌在投資流程中，成為我們建構投資組合的方式。現在從客戶的
05:05
perspective um it's obviously very important for them to have discipline particularly
角度來看，對他們來說，有紀律顯然非常重要，特別是
05:12
when an investment strategy isn't working uh because what we're going to do is we're going to sit here and follow
當某項投資策略不奏效時，因為我們會做的是，我們會坐在這裡，遵循
05:18
our process it's consistent it's repeatable but our strategies don't always outperform
我們的流程，它是一致的、可重複的，但我們的策略並非總是表現優異
05:24
and actually the way that we build these strategies they're pretty concentrated so they can have big tracking error so
而且實際上，我們建立這些策略的方式，它們的集中度相當高，因此可能出現很大的追蹤誤差，所以
05:30
it's important for us to maintain that discipline because when a strategy reverts and starts to perform better
對我們來說，維持這份紀律很重要，因為當策略開始反轉並表現得更好時
05:38
we're going to have consistently followed the process that we have and hopefully by educating investors they
我們已經持續遵循既有的流程，而透過教育投資人，希望他們
05:46
can also maintain their discipline to make it through to the back side for when a strategy actually does start to
也能維持自己的紀律，撐到策略真正開始
05:51
work so that's kind of what what I think of you know when I think of us and discipline
發揮作用的那一天，這就是我對我們與紀律的看法
05:56
that's how I think of it it's kind of cool too because uh there's the um so in the gang Star song there's
我是這樣想的，這其實也挺酷的，因為在 Gang Star 的歌曲裡
06:04
also the piece it's kind of like a low-key it's not a disc the two pocket biggie but it's he's got the thing about
也有一段，它有點像是低調的，不是那首 two pocket biggie，但他有提到
06:12
um uh it's like the wrong North Star idea it's this idea of preaching death versus
關於錯誤的北極星概念，那種宣揚死亡相對於
06:18
breathing life and I think about that because that's that's like value investing it's yeah we're preaching
帶來生命的理念，我想到這個是因為，這就像價值投資，是啊，我們在宣揚
06:24
death we're talking about these busted up companies that are you know cigar butts and Ten Ten Cent dollars and all
死亡，我們談論的是那些慘澹的公司，你知道的，雪茄屁股、十分錢當十分錢用，還有
06:32
these other things that are out there but it's really about no if you can stick to this you can get that premium
所有其他存在的東西，但真正的重點在於，如果你能堅持下去，你就能獲得那筆溢價
06:38
one decision that you have to stick to over time to have the discipline to reap the results
你必須長期堅持一項決定，才能培養紀律並收穫成果
06:45
so let's go back to um sort of one of the very beginning episodes where we talked about
那麼讓我們回到最早幾集討論的內容
06:50
goals-based planning for goals-based discipline so let's relate that to what we're talking about here
關於目標導向規劃以建立目標導向的紀律，讓我們將此概念與現在討論的內容連結起來
06:58
a goal is an outcome of a process and it's not just an outcome that we're we're not we're trying to manifest it
目標是過程的結果，而不僅僅是我們試圖在生命中實現的結果
07:06
into our lives but it's it's usually an assumption right so when you're thinking about a model portfolio that's to yield
它通常是一種假設，對吧？所以當你思考一個旨在產生
07:13
some result you have to make assumptions about the future so goals-based planning is the idea of saying what is the
某種結果的模型投資組合時，你必須對未來做出假設。目標導向規劃的理念在於探討
07:21
discipline that gets us the assumed result the assumed outcome and that leads it backs up to what are the
是什麼紀律能讓我們獲得假設的結果，而這又回過頭來指向那些
07:30
decisions in time that are going to lead us towards this goal and I think the the cool part about a goal is it can really
隨時間推移能引導我們達成目標的決定。我認為目標最棒的地方在於它能真正
07:37
help frame what we're doing today in the sense so like do you did you or do you or did you put away money for your kids
幫助我們框定今天該做什麼，比方說，你有沒有為你孩子的
07:46
for college in the 529 did you do you did that right okay I thought we were talking about this before so it's like
大學教育存錢到529計畫？你做了嗎？我以為我們之前討論過這點。所以像是
07:51
when and now how did you do it did you actually send money on like regular intervals uh default like as a deferment
你當時是怎麼做的？你是否真的定期匯款？像是預設的，就像分期付款一樣？
07:58
like yeah I had I had automatic withdrawal setup yup so this is a super common one for like
對，我設置了自動扣款。沒錯，這是非常常見的做法，像是
08:04
saving for retirement uh or funding kids educations where Choice architecture the goal is we want
為退休存錢或資助孩子教育。在選擇架構中，我們的目標是
08:10
to send the kids to college so the decision to make is not a decision every time we look at the savings account some
送孩子去上大學。所以要做的決定不是每次我們看存款帳戶時都要做決定。有些人
08:16
people want to pay it like a bill once a month or once a year but a lot of people will say I just want I need to get this
希望像付帳單一樣一個月付一次或一年付一次。但很多人會說，我只需要
08:22
amount of money into the account to pay for college so that's our goal so now we reverse engineer that what's the
把這筆錢存入帳戶以支付大學學費，那就是我們的目標。所以現在我們反過來推演，我今天要做的
08:28
smallest decision I'm going to decide today that every paycheck for the next 18 years is going to take this amount of
最小決定是什麼？讓我在未來18年的每份薪水都自動提領這筆錢。所以紀律回歸到
08:34
money out and so discipline reverts back to which decisions can I stick to that get me along the path for the Assumption
我能堅持哪些決定，讓我在通往假設的路上前進，然後在未來實現我想要的目標。我認為目標導向規劃
08:42
of what I want and then realize the goal of what I want down the road I think like goals-based planning it's as
就像聽起來那樣直觀，但這就是我們試圖去做的——建構那種紀律。順帶一提，我認為
08:49
intuitive as it sounds but that's what we're trying to do structure that discipline and by the way I think
就像聽起來那樣直觀，但這就是我們試圖去做的——建構那種紀律。順帶一提，我認為
08:55
anytime you're talking about savings whether it's for 529 or retirement or maybe you're saving for a house I think
無論是為了529大學教育基金、退休，或是為了買房，當談到儲蓄時
09:02
like an automatic Set uh you know deposit or uh you know on a monthly basis is definitely
我認為對大多數人來說，設定自動轉帳或每月定期扣款
09:11
the way to go for most people because there's always going to be times where it's like ah this month things are a
絕對是最佳選擇。因為總會有手頭緊的時候，像是「啊，這個月開銷有點吃緊，529先不存了」
09:16
little tight I'm not going to fund you know the 529 and then you're sort of next month maybe you know something else
然後下個月可能又有其他事情冒出來。所以我認為，愈能將這些決定自動化
09:22
comes up so I think the more you can automate those decisions which effectively is a disciplined way to save
也就是以紀律的方式進行儲蓄，對大多數人來說效果愈好。
09:29
um the better that most people are going to be so Flip Flip This one investment related
這是 Flip Flip 另一個與投資相關的觀點，想請你分享一下看法。
09:35
side that just weigh in on this so now when the assumptions are off so in a goal uh we say I think the Investments
假設現在預設情況有變，例如我們預期投資報酬率是這樣，但市場正處於大幅回檔。
09:42
are going to return this now the markets are in a giant drawdown did you ever or have you ever like when
你有沒有在市場崩跌時，像是疫情初期或金融危機時
09:48
the markets puked in the beginning of covid or in the financial crisis did you ever add extra money did you ever do
加碼投入資金？有沒有做過類似的事？
09:55
anything like that well no not with those accounts but I've definitely
嗯，這兩個帳戶沒有，但我確實有
10:03
um done some adjustments in the investing accounts and the retirement accounts to try to take advantage of
在投資帳戶和退休帳戶做一些調整，試圖利用市場疲軟的機會。
10:11
weakness and for the most part you know I've gotten those I mean I I know it could have gone the other way but I feel
大體來說，我覺得自己判斷得不錯，雖然我知道也可能會失敗，但我認為
10:16
like I've gotten that right tilting into things that I think you know look cheap um it kind of happened with technology
我押對了方向，轉向那些我認為看起來便宜的標的。以我來說，去年底科技股就發生這種情況
10:23
at the end of last year for me I took some positions because I was pretty light on Tech given that we're more of a
我建立了一些部位，因為我原本科技股配置偏低，我們的投資組合比較偏向
10:28
value quality type of with our own portfolios so I said let me take some and move it into the you know in the
價值與品質型的，所以我說，讓我撥一些資金轉進那斯達克。結果很幸運
10:35
NASDAQ and that actually yeah luckily worked out it's super cool when decisions so again
真的奏效了。當決策奏效時真的很酷。
10:42
having the discipline is to say you recognize what the goal what the assumptions are that get you there and
所以再次強調，要有紀律，意思是你要清楚目標是什麼、達成目標的假設條件是什麼
10:49
then when something's gone against you you can make an overriding decision in some cases or an add-on decision to say
然後當市場走勢不如預期時，你可以在某些情況下做出覆蓋性的決策，或是加碼的決策
10:56
in support of reaching this goal even though I'm now further away from the goal because of the drawdown or
來支持你達成這個目標，即使因為市場回檔或其他因素，你離目標更遠了
11:02
whatever else I have a way to think about the steps to get there and if you have a way if you
你仍然有方法去思考如何一步步達成目標，如果你有方法，如果你
11:08
have a discipline then you can make that secondary decision and do stuff like add when the world is trying to end we did a
有了紀律，你就能做出次級決策，並在世界似乎要終結時採取行動，例如加碼買進。我們曾做了幾集關於退休規劃的內容，
11:16
couple of episodes on planning for retirement so we talked about young investors planning for retirement people
討論了年輕投資者如何規劃退休，以及
11:23
in their Prime earning years and then those investors approaching retirement and then those in their later years in
處於收入巔峰時期的人，還有即將退休的投資者，以及退休後晚年的人們。我們將這些內容分為不同的集數，
11:31
retirement and we broke those down in separate episodes and talked about those different parts and pieces of life and
分別探討人生的不同階段，以及
11:37
how people should think about retirement planning and all those different stages but do you think that discipline evolves
人們在所有這些不同階段中，應如何看待退休規劃。但你認為這種紀律會隨著這些階段演變嗎？
11:44
through those stages or does it effectively stay the same I definitely think it evolves and I'll
還是基本上保持不變？我確實認為它會演變，而且
11:52
definitely I want to relate it to us taking care of clients because I know you you guys too we have
我想將其與我們照顧客戶的方式聯繫起來，因為我知道你，你們也是，我們
11:59
we serve 18 year olds in some cases younger uh and we serve
有時服務 18 歲的客戶，甚至更年輕，我們也服務
12:05
90 something year olds so the full the full gamut of Ages and stages of Life are on display for people that we work
90 多歲的客戶，所以我們每天接觸的客戶涵蓋了人生各個年齡層和階段，
12:12
with every single day at some point and you guys have a pretty broad range of Ages that you serve too right like
而且你們服務的客戶年齡範圍也相當廣泛，對吧？
12:17
there's that yeah yeah so did you are you a fourth turning guy and I'm not saying like the the
是的，沒錯。那麼你是「第四次轉型」的支持者嗎？我指的不是那種占星學的
12:25
Ridiculousness of maybe the the astrology of it but are you have you read the book are you familiar with the
無稽之談，但你讀過那本書嗎？你熟悉
12:31
concept no what does it just came out okay so so the fourth turning so I like to pitch this book is this is the only
這個概念嗎？沒有，那是什麼？它剛出版不久。總之，關於「第四次轉型」，我很喜歡推銷這本書，因為這是唯一一本
12:36
book that um uh Al Gore and Steve Bannon both gave to all the members of Congress when they got to Washington
艾爾·高爾（Al Gore）和史蒂夫·班農（Steve Bannon）在他們到華盛頓上任時，都送給國會所有成員的書。
12:45
so okay slightly slightly eclectic group that all likes this book so why it's also the book where the term Millennial
所以，好吧，這是一個稍微另類的群體，但他們都喜歡這本書。為什麼呢？這也是「千禧世代」（Millennial）一詞
12:51
came from so myself as an elder Millennial like it's interesting he's there uh Strauss and how are the two
的來源。我自己身為年長的千禧世代，覺得很有趣。斯特勞斯（Strauss）和豪威爾（Howe）是
12:58
guys who coined this term like in the 90s before everybody adopted the name and everything so
在 90 年代創造這個詞的兩個人，早在大家普遍採用這個名字之前。那麼，
13:03
what's astrological if you will about the book it feels like you're reading Star Charts is they're kind of saying
這本書占星學的部分是什麼呢？讀起來感覺像是在看星盤。他們基本上是說，
13:09
like there's four generations at a given time and that's like your grandparents are part of a different generation than
在任何特定時間都有四個世代，例如你的祖父母屬於一個世代，
13:15
your parents are a different part of a generation than you and a different generation from your kids Generations
你的父母屬於另一個世代，你又是另一個世代，而你的孩子則屬於不同的世代。
13:19
have common traits and they kind of say there's these four common traits that uh go in what they call turnings so like
它們有共同的特質，大致上說有四種共同的特質，會出現在他們所謂的「轉折期」中，所以就像
13:27
what one generation kind of passes to the next to the next to the next before the cycle repeats so four generations of
一代人傳承給下一代、再下一代，直到循環重複之前所傳遞的東西，所以在廣泛的文化層面上，
13:33
personality type sort of at a broad cultural level before the cycle repeats and it's really interesting because it's
在循環重複之前，會有四代人的性格類型，這真的很有趣，因為你可以
13:39
you can like reverse engineer it and say in society this is where the fourth generation was the fourth turning of
像反向工程一樣推算，並說在社會中，第四代人就是第四個轉折期，
13:47
like the people who went off to fight World War II and then who came home and the first generation that's born out of
像那些去參加第二次世界大戰，然後回到家鄉的人，以及在那之後出生的第一代人，他們有一直追溯到
13:52
it and they have historical examples going all the way back it's a really cool what I think of as like a retrofit
過去的歷史案例，這真的很酷，我認為這就像是對歷史進行
13:58
on history for explaining this now everybody wants to then take that and this is why Al Gore and Steve Bannon and
一種修正來解釋這一點，現在每個人都想拿這個，這就是為什麼艾爾·高爾和史蒂夫·班農以及
14:05
these people are passing it out everyone wants to take that and then predict the future with it and that's cute but even
這些人都在推廣它，每個人都想拿它來預測未來，這很有趣，但即使是
14:11
I would say even even how who just uh just republished a new version so I'm reading the new version right now so I'm
我要說，即使是剛剛重新出版新版本的霍華德·馬克斯，我現在也在讀新版本，所以我正在
14:18
thinking about it he's like yeah there's a lot of ranges for how this could play out we just think the overall logic
思考這件事，他說，是的，這件事的發展有很多可能性，我們只是認為整體的邏輯
14:23
rhymes long-winded way of me getting to this point do disciplines change across ages
是相似的（我長篇大論就是為了說到這一點），學科會隨著時代改變嗎？
14:29
absolutely and they change across uh Generations as well and I think one of the most beneficial things to understand
絕對會，它們也會隨著世代而改變，我認為規劃者和投資者最需要了解的
14:35
is planners and investors is actually how the generation that people belong to so what's happening in your peer group
一點，其實是人們所屬的世代——也就是你同齡群體中發生的事情——
14:43
actually changes the default disciplines you have and then the disciplines you age with
如何改變你預設的學科，以及你隨著年齡增長所堅守的學科。
14:50
one of my favorite examples in reading the fourth turning for the first time 10 plus years ago the thing that clicked in
我最喜歡的例子之一，是在十多年前第一次讀《第四轉折》時，當時我腦中靈光一閃，
14:57
my mind was I was talking to a client who at the time was probably in their 50s so they're thinking about getting
是我在和一位客戶交談，他當時大概50多歲，正考慮為退休做準備，
15:04
ready for retirement right and they're complaining about their parent who's also a client who is
然後他在抱怨他的父母（也是我的客戶），基本上
15:12
basically like swearing the logic of the parent did not match the logic of the kid is this something you can relate to
可以說父母的邏輯和子女的邏輯完全不搭，塔拉，你有類似的感觸嗎？
15:18
Tara well how about I have a 13 year old 14 year old so I think so
嗯，我有個13、14歲的孩子，我想是有的。
15:24
so you can see it in both directions right right oh yeah I got yes exactly all right so what's what's so crazy and
所以你可以在兩個方向上都看到這點，對吧？對，沒錯。好吧，這到底是什麼回事，真瘋狂。
15:33
this was like I I still remember this conversation because I was like oh crap that's exactly what the fourth earnings
我依然記得那次對話，因為當時我心想：「天啊，這正是第四季財報的精髓所在。」
15:38
all about I was like okay so the grandparent was basically a depression or a kid
我當時想：「好吧，所以祖父母輩基本上就是經歷過大蕭條的孩子。」
15:44
and it's like of course this person can't ever spend principle they've been hardwired their whole life to like hide
他們這輩子就像被洗腦一樣，只想把錢藏起來，並以特定方式行事。
15:51
money away and do stuff a certain way their version of disciplined is you can spend any of the interest any of the
他們所謂的紀律，就是你可以花任何利息、任何孳息，或任何衍生的收益，但絕不能碰本金。
15:56
coupon any of the whatever comes off but never touch principle and that comes from their Depression era saving
這源於他們在大蕭條時期養成的儲蓄、預算與消費心態。
16:03
budgeting spending mentality now the thing that that generation then passes on to their kids is they're going to
而這一代傳承給子女的觀念是：
16:11
pass on the idea to their kids that like hey you shouldn't spend principal but the kids are going to grow up feeling
他們會告訴子女：「嘿，你不該花本金。」但子女長大後會覺得，
16:16
like Mom and Dad were always a little bit penny pinching and that creates a funny thing because
爸媽總是摳門了一點，這就造成了一個有趣的現象：
16:21
at some point in their lives if they ever decide to spend principal or if they're trying to get around their guilt
在他們人生的某個階段，如果決定要花本金，或是試圖擺脫那種罪惡感、
16:26
shame whatever about how they spend money they have to work through all the things their parents told them to do
羞恥感，或是對金錢使用的任何負面情緒，他們就必須對抗父母從前灌輸的觀念。
16:32
and that's really hard and then when you flash forward to like the kids of the same client from this story it was like
這非常困難。接著，當我們看到故事中那位客戶的孫輩時，情況完全相反。
16:39
the opposite thing it's like the kids are like yeah I want to go to the super expensive college like they were totally
孫輩們會說：「對啊，我想去讀超貴的大學。」他們完全脫離了金錢的現實，
16:44
detached from money and totally detached from the grandparent generation of never touch the principal
也完全脫離了祖父母那種「絕不碰本金」的觀念。
16:51
so I think discipline is generationally dependent I think it's stage of Life dependent and I think you always have to
所以我認為，紀律是依世代而異的，也依人生階段而異。
16:57
look up and down a generation to better understand like negatively where you're situated in your attitudes towards each
你必須縱觀上下世代，才能更清楚地理解——或者說負面影響——你對每個決定所抱持的態度。
17:05
decision you make that does that rhyme with you at all does that like giant yeah no no and I
這聽起來有共鳴嗎？有，完全有。我
17:12
think too you know for uh firms like yours and ours I mean but you're I think more involved than
想也是，對於像貴公司和我們這樣的 firm 來說，我的意思是，你比我更深入參與
17:20
people's their total Financial picture but you know you may you may be working with a client for 20
客戶的整體財務狀況。但你知道，你可能會跟一位客戶合作 20
17:27
years maybe even longer um some of your clients might even be coming up on 20 years I mean we have
年，甚至更久。嗯，你的一些客戶可能也快滿 20 年了，我是說我們有
17:32
clients that have been with us 10 years and somebody could be working and then transition into retirement and then have
跟我們合作 10 年的客戶，有些人可能還在工作，然後轉入退休，接著擁有
17:39
health care related whatever might change in their life so because of those changes the discipline
醫療保健相關的，無論他們生活中發生什麼變化，所以因為這些變化，準則
17:46
is going to I mean the decisions are going to change and again we've talked about how how that you know ties in ties
將會，我是說，決策將會改變，我們再次談到這如何，你知道的，與準則
17:54
into discipline I think the fourth turning thing is interesting I would be interested like one of the things I was
相互關聯。我認為「第四轉折」這個概念很有趣。我對此很感興趣，就像我一直在想的其中一件事是
17:58
thinking of is like uh and maybe tell me if I'm off here but like home ownership in this country so
嗯，也許自從你說的，但就像在這個國家的房屋自有權一樣，所以
18:04
like you know obviously the middle class in the 50s and 60s was all about buying a home and I think it stayed that way
像你知道的，顯然五六十年代的中產階級都是關於買房，我認為這種情況一直持續著
18:11
even with my wife and I I mean you know so I was born in 76 um we bought our home 15 years ago
就連我和我妻子也是，我是說，你知道，我出生於76年，嗯，我們在15年前買了我們的房子
18:18
actually interestingly enough and I think that was a big goal and that obviously has a lot of implications and
說來有趣，我認為那是一個很大的目標，而且那顯然有很多影響，
18:26
you know our kids like our house and we like our house and we like our community but buying a home now
你知道我們的孩子喜歡我們的房子，我們也喜歡我們的房子，我們喜歡我們的社區，但現在買房
18:34
is very hard in this country for a lot of people I mean given where rates are given where home prices are give more
在這個國家對很多人來說非常困難，我是說，考慮到目前的利率、房價，還有更多的
18:39
suppliers and so you could see a a generation a a small shift in which you know maybe buying a whole
供應商，所以你可以看到，一代人，出現了一個小小的轉變，你知道也許買一整棟
18:49
it isn't a goal of a lot of people maybe renting is what they end up doing and then it changes that it change that has
不再是很多人的目標，也許租房才是他們最終的選擇，而這就改變了，那種改變有
18:55
a lot of implications you know for the economy for for families for uh I think the you know where how how families
很多影響，你知道對經濟、對家庭、對，我認為你知道家庭如何
19:04
develop probably child birth rates if you're in you know so you could kind of play out play that whole thing out I
發展，可能還有生育率，如果你身處其中，你知道，所以你可以把整件事推演下去。我
19:10
don't know if that's sort of on topic with that fourth generation thing but that's what I'm thinking of 100 because
不知道這是否與那個第四代轉折的概念有關，但這就是我一直在想的，百分之百是因為
19:15
demographics and things like attitudes towards homeownership and again the real the real world
人口統計學以及像對房屋自有權的態度之類的東西，再次強調，這是真實世界
19:21
application that doesn't feel like astrology because I think predicting the future with demographics and with stuff
的應用，不會讓人覺得像占星術，因為我認為用人口統計學和像這樣的東西來預測未來
19:26
like this does get a little bit of astrological it's like reading your horoscope so I'd caution anybody about
確實會有點像占星術，就像在看你的星座運勢一樣，所以我會告誡任何人
19:32
trying to use that to predict the future as a one-off like that's not the variable you should solely focus in on
不要試圖單獨用它來預測未來，因為那不是你應該唯一關注的變量
19:38
uh but I will say like that because you were you were what like probably mid-20s in the financial or in the in the tech
嗯，但我會說，因為你當時，你大概二十多歲，身處金融或科技
19:46
bubble bursting mid-20s yeah yeah you're saying in the uh yeah yeah so I was um yeah I was like 20 whatever uh I was
泡沫破裂的時期，二十多歲，是的，是的，你說在，嗯，是的，是的，所以我那時，嗯，我大概20歲左右，嗯，我那時
19:55
born in 76 so it's like 24.
出生於76年，所以大概是24歲。
19:58
yeah so you're 24 and then your early 30s when the financial crisis happens right right right yep and and and not to
對，你那時24歲，然後金融危機發生時你30出頭，對對對，沒錯，而且，而且，這不是要讓Justin大談個人隱私，所以請編輯斟酌，你們是什麼時候開始生小孩的？
20:06
make this uh the Justin diverges personal details show so edit if needed uh when did you guys start having kids
你們有家庭的時候大概幾歲？現在是2023年，接近9月，我女兒出生，不對，9月，所以沒錯，
20:12
like how old were you when you had a family so it's 2023 uh closeborn to nine my daughter was born no nine so right
在金融海嘯期間，她出生在谷底，我喜歡說接近谷底，那是3月，對，谷底是2009年3月9日，她是在5月出生的，所以，好吧，所以，
20:19
during The Clash she was born at the bottom I like to say close the bottom was March yeah the bottom was uh March
我們不會去倒推所有的數學運算，是，不不不，但我們要說的是，像金融危機、經濟衰退、歷史上還有戰爭和其他事件，這些其實對生育率有巨大的影響，
20:27
not March 9th of 2009 she was born May in May so well there you go so
當我們回顧二戰後的嬰兒潮，以及我們看到的那些現象，
20:35
we're not going to reverse engineer all the math that goes yeah no no no but what we are going to say is things like
你在世代轉移的不同階段看到這些生育率的區塊和舒適區，這並非偶然，
20:42
Financial crises recessions historically Wars and other things they actually have huge impacts on fertility rates like
這改變了房屋自有率，改變了稅收，改變了國家內部所有這些事情，而在《第四次轉型》的分析中，這部分對我來說之所以有效，是因為這是少數
20:50
when we go back and we look at like the post-world War II baby boom and we look at that stuff
邏輯性的研究，我們審視定義世代的事件，以及這些事件如何不僅影響經歷它的世代，
20:55
it's not a mistake where you see these pockets of fertility rates and comfort and different parts of the generation
也影響兩旁的世代，這對我們來說，因為我們有跨世代的規劃實務，是非常重要的，這真的讓人大開眼界，了解如何與人互動，以及他們的決策和
21:02
shift and that changes home ownership that changes tax revenues that changes all that stuff inside of a country and
處事原則如何在家庭和世代之間改變。我當時想，親愛的，Lemon's失敗了，Washington Mutual要倒了，
21:09
that part of their analysis in the fourth turning that's to me why that works because it's one of the few
聯準會在救助，我們不能生小孩，她說我們一定要生，因為她說巴菲特說要買進美國，沒錯，完全正確，我很喜歡這點。
21:15
logical studies where we look at generational defining events and how those don't just impact the generation
我們做過的一集是關於4%法則，這個概念是說，如果你有一個投資組合，你投資在股票和債券之間的平衡策略，
21:21
who experienced it but the Generations on each side and that to me because we have a multi-generational planning
在25或30年的期間，你應該可以從投資組合中提取4%，希望不會花光。
21:29
practice that is huge it was a real eye-opener and just how to relate to people and how their decisions and
這點非常重要，這是一個真正的警醒，以及如何與人建立關係，還有他們的決策和
21:36
disciplines change across families and generations I was like honey lemons failed Washington Mutual is going under
在不同家庭和世代間是如何變化的。我當時說，蜂蜜檸檬（Honey Lemons）失敗了，華盛頓互惠銀行（Washington Mutual）快倒了
21:42
the fed's bailing out we can't have a baby she's like we're having a baby because she was like Buffett said buy
聯準會正在救助，我們不能生小孩，她說我們要生小孩，因為她說巴菲特說要買進
21:49
America yeah exactly I like it that's right one of the episodes we did was around the four percent rule which is
美國，沒錯，完全正確，我喜歡，沒錯。我們做過的一集節目是關於「4%法則」，也就是
21:57
this idea that you know if you have an Investment Portfolio and you're invested in a balanced strategy between stocks
這個概念是，如果你有一個投資組合，並且投資在股票和
22:04
and bonds that over 25 or 30 year period you should be able to draw four percent off the portfolio and hopefully not run
債券之間的平衡策略中，那麼在25或30年的期間，你應該可以從投資組合中提取4%，希望不會花光
22:12
out of money that's the idea behind the four percent rule so do you think that rules like the four percent rule
錢用完了，這就是「4%法則」背後的理念。那麼，你認為像「4%法則」這樣的規則
22:19
are objectively good as disciplines I think it goes back to your point when you were talking about adding money to
作為一種準則，客觀上是好的嗎？我想這要回到你之前提到的，關於去年加碼科技股
22:28
like Tech last year and stuff like that the four percent rule is a really a really great rule of thumb so long as
等操作的觀點。「4%法則」真的是一個非常棒的經驗法則，只要你
22:34
you're looking at it as just a rule of thumb you want this barometer of what you can aim for to cast assumptions
把它當作一個經驗法則來看。你希望有一個指標來設定目標，並以此進行
22:40
around but we always say we have to look at in the planning process what's going on in your
假設推演。但我們總是說，在規劃過程中，我們必須審視你的生活
22:48
life and in markets and those are two separate tracks and so if markets are puking and your account values are down
和市場的狀況，這是兩個獨立的軌道。所以，如果市場崩跌，你的帳戶價值下跌
22:55
and this was part of the four percent rule episode we and variable withdrawal strategies and retirements we ended up
——這也是「4%法則」那集（我們討論可變提領策略和退休）內容的一部分——我們最後
23:01
just talking about that when the markets are puking you have to decide if you can change your lifestyle income needs or
談到，當市場崩跌時，你必須決定在那種環境下，是否能改變你的生活方式或收入需求。
23:08
not in those environments so it's these two layers of that decision making the four percent rule great Baseline great
所以，這是決策的兩個層面。「4%法則」是很好的基準，很適合用於
23:15
for assumptions great as a back of the envelope test on if you're if your assets are going to sustain but you have
假設推演，也很適合用來粗略測試你的資產是否能持續支撐。但你必須
23:23
to turn around and then say in real time how is this going to inform our decisions because let's face it four
回過頭來，在當下即時思考，這將如何影響我們的決策？因為老實說，4%
23:30
percent is just a number and you can tell us better than most those numbers the variables in that equation have
只是一個數字，而你比大多數人都更清楚，這個等式中的變數
23:36
changed a lot in the last 10 20 30 40 50 60 years in that data set things like inflation and bonds and all
在過去 10、20、30、40、50、60 年的數據集中發生了巨大變化，像是通膨、債券等
23:44
that how much has that moved any any rules like that any four percent
因素。這些變動幅度有多大？任何類似的規則，任何 4% 的
23:50
equivalent rules well I was you know what I've seen what I've seen work quite well
等效規則呢？嗯，我……你知道我看過……我看過效果不錯的做法
23:55
um and it kind of is a little bit of a a play off what you were saying is um you know you have clients that might be
嗯，這有點像是你剛才說法的延伸。嗯，你知道有些客戶可能只提領
24:01
taking four or five percent but they have a lot of cash someplace else so in the
4% 或 5%，但他們在其他地方持有大量現金。所以
24:09
event that like you have a year like last year when you had the 60 40 down maybe the most it's been the last of
在像是去年那樣的年份，60/40 股債組合下跌——可能是過去 60、70 或 100 年來
24:15
whatever is 60 or 70 or 100 years but you know stocks and bonds both were down a lot uh pulling money from
最慘的一年——你知道股票和債券都大跌時，從（帳戶裡）幾乎像現金的部分
24:23
you know almost like cash and letting the letting the portfolio recover um I had clients that actually did do
提款，讓投資組合有機會復原。我有客戶確實這樣做過。
24:30
that and I was very pleased that they did that and I thought I sort of think that you know I continue to remind them
這點我非常高興他們這麼做，我想我會持續提醒他們
24:37
it was a good decision because now they're back on their standard schedule of withdrawal rate but the portfolio is
這是個正確的決定，因為現在他們又回到原本的提領率標準，但投資組合是
24:42
probably up I mean from the bottom last year I don't even know the s p is up like almost 20 for the year so you're
大概上漲了，我是說從去年低點算起，我甚至不知道S&P今年漲了快20%，所以你
24:48
probably talking uh uh however much a lot for stocks for sure yeah yeah um and you know because it's not
大概會說，呃，不管怎樣，股票部位肯定漲了很多，對對，嗯，而且你知道因為這不
24:55
necessarily like what you said about like it's it's might be hard for someone to dial in and out of the expenses if
必然像你說的那樣，像是如果他們能夠調整支出是很好，但有時候人們很難彈性調整這些支出，而這更多是
25:01
they can that's great uh but it's sometimes hard for people to flex those and that's more of I think something
我認為需要時間去調整的事情，所以我喜歡現金餘額，如果你手邊有這筆錢可用的話
25:07
that needs to be worked on maybe over time so that's why I like the cash balance if you have that available to
但長期來看，現金會成為一種拖累，但它確實有其作用
25:12
you but the challenge with that is is that long term that cash is going to be a drag but it serves a purpose
至少對我的客戶來說，在那種時期，它有雙向作用，我認為這就像
25:19
at least for my clients during times like that it goes in both directions and I think that's that like the discipline
生活層面以及市場層面的紀律一樣，非常重要。我想到，我永遠不會忘記這件事，我想我在另一集講過
25:26
on the life side as well as the market side it's so important I'm thinking of I'll never forget this I think I told
這個故事，有些客戶即將退休，那是在金融危機後的
25:32
this story in another episode where had clients who were approaching retirement this was in the post-financial crisis
時代，當時公司正在整併，他們都在醫療保健領域工作，他們都認為在公司合併中
25:40
era so firms were getting Consolidated they were both in the health care space they both thought there was better than
自己被裁員的機率不小，他們說他們的年齡
25:46
nil odds that they were going to be redundant in a corporate merger in their jobs and they were like we're the
正好很尷尬，他們當時60出頭，他們都希望能撐到65歲中段，甚至更晚到65歲後段，才能
25:54
wrong age for this they were early 60s at the time they both wanted to get to Mid 60s at least if not later 60s to be
享有聯邦醫療保險，但問題是，如果這件事發生，我們要如何生存和應對？因為當時是
26:01
on Medicare but the idea was how are we going to survive and deal with this if it happens and because it was shortly
金融危機後不久，最大的擔憂是醫療保險，所以他們的恐懼是，這段從
26:09
after the financial crisis the big concern was Health Care so the terror thought was these cobras
大約62歲到65歲等待進入聯邦醫療保險的空窗期，花費會非常龐大，尤其是如果我們失業了，而我們
26:17
from like say 62 to 65 to war on Medicare is going to be enormous especially if we're unemployed and we
真的不想從我們的退休帳戶，從我們的延稅帳戶中大筆提領資金來度過這段時期
26:26
really don't want to Hemorrhage money out of our retirement accounts out of our tax deferred accounts to get there
所以他們把所有錢都存成現金，嗯，記得2009、2010和2011年現金的收益率嗎，Justin？
26:32
so sock all this money away in cash uh remember how much cash was yielding in 2009 10 and 11 Justin yeah oh yeah
沒錯，對，所以這真的很糟糕，說到巨大的拖累，所以再次強調，因為這是生活與市場
26:42
that's true yeah so this it it sucked talk about a huge drag so then again because it's life and markets
沒錯，對，所以這真的很糟糕，說到巨大的拖累，所以再次強調，因為這是生活與市場
26:52
a funny little thing happened to health care costs not long after the health the the global financial crisis do you
在全球金融危機後不久，醫療保健成本發生了一件有趣的小事，你
26:58
remember what small little thing happened to health care in that period of time was it Obamacare
記得那段時間醫療保健發生了什麼小事嗎？是歐巴馬健保嗎？
27:06
right right so these clients had saved all this money yeah terrified of COBRA they both lose their jobs
對，對，所以這些客戶存了這筆錢，是的，他們非常害怕 COBRA（失業後的健保延續），因為他們兩個都失業了，
27:14
income goes to zero but the Affordable Care Act was for all of its flaws a means-based
收入歸零，但《平價醫療法案》雖然有其缺陷，是一個基於收入的
27:22
system so when income went away the cost of their what would have been their Cobra was now on the exchanges and the
系統，所以當收入消失時，他們原本要付的 COBRA 費用現在轉移到交易所上，而
27:29
cost of Health Care suddenly went from being this astronomical terrifying thing that we're we were always going to run
醫療保健的成本突然從原本那種天文數字般、令人恐懼、我們總覺得在
27:34
out of money at some point before they hit Medicare age all of a sudden their health care costs
達到 Medicare（老年醫療保險）年齡之前遲早會耗盡資金的東西，一下子變成他們的醫療保健成本
27:40
were effectively zero and so in one of the great like pre-affordable Care Act we were panicked to save cash and have
變成 effectively 零，所以在《平價醫療法案》實施前的時期，我們恐慌地儲蓄現金，這對
27:47
this massive drag on the portfolio post affordable character was a policy change they had a huge windfall and that money
投資組合造成了巨大的拖累；而在《平價醫療法案》實施後，政策變了，他們獲得了一筆意外之財，那筆錢
27:53
ended up lasting way longer even though it was in cash earning zero just because a policy change happened that nobody
維持了更久的時間，即使它放在現金裡賺 zero 利息，只因為一個沒人
27:59
could have seen coming yeah and yeah discipline is knowing knowing we need to save for health care but then accepting
能預料到的政策變動發生了。是的，而且，是的，紀律就是知道我們需要為醫療保健存錢，但也要接受
28:06
the reality that the work the world's not it's that that old joke if you want to if you want God to laugh show them
現實，世界並不是……就像那個老笑話：如果你想讓上帝發笑，就告訴祂你的
28:13
your plans it's that we uh had an episode about asset allocation and asset location I
計畫。這就像我們有一集關於資產配置（asset allocation）和資產定位（asset location）的節目，
28:21
don't know if it was the same episode or different episodes or how we did that but so the idea asset allocation is you
我不知道是同一集還是不同集，或者我們是怎麼做的，但資產配置的概念是，
28:27
know what assets you hold stocks bonds Commodities cash real estate and then asset location is you know where what
你知道你持有什麼資產：股票、債券、大宗商品、現金、房地產，然後資產定位是，你知道你在什麼
28:34
types of accounts you're holding different vehicles or strategies in whether it's taxable or uh retirement I
類型的帳戶持有不同的工具或策略，無論是應稅帳戶還是退休
28:41
don't know you probably did you ever listen to the Pod I don't know because we've interviewed Corey I think Corey
帳戶。我不知道，你可能有聽過，你有聽過那集 Pod 嗎？我不確定，因為我們訪問過 Corey，我想 Corey
28:47
hosting from Newfound at least twice and and he's like such a smart thoughtful investor and deep in
是 Newfound 的主持人，至少兩次，他是個非常聰明、有思想的投資者，而且深入
28:56
the you know and and into the systematic and quantitative strategies and building some really cool strategies over there
研究，你知道，也深入探討系統性和量化策略，並在那裡建立了一些非常酷的策略，
29:01
but he oh it must have been a show it's your portfolio episode because we were talking about his portfolio and he uses
但哦，那一定是在「你的投資組合」那一集，因為我們在談論他的投資組合，而他使用
29:07
some return stacking and some stuff but we were talking to him when early in his career
他有一些回報堆疊之類的策略，但我們在他職業生涯早期就和他談過
29:13
when he I don't know if he was at Newfound or he had founded it or what he was doing but
當時我不知道他是在 Newfound 還是他創立的公司，或者他在做什麼，但他
29:19
he he kind of didn't set up a lot of retirement accounts he was investing a lot in these just taxable accounts and
他沒有設立很多退休帳戶，他大量投資在這些只是應稅帳戶中，並且
29:26
buying these like high quality kind of like dividend dividend dividend grower type of accounts and this goes
買進這些像是高品質、成長型股息之類的帳戶，這可以追溯到
29:32
way back like 10 years ago so like his cost basis on those is so low that it's almost like he can't
很久以前，大約 10 年前，所以他在這些帳戶上的成本基礎非常低，低到他幾乎無法
29:41
move out of those without you know a major tax liability so he was kind of telling us that you know for him he
在不造成重大稅務負擔的情況下從中移出，所以他有點告訴我們，對他來說，他
29:47
really wishes he had set it up differently because it would it wouldn't it would have gave him a lot more
真的希望當初能用不同的方式設置，因為那樣會給他更多
29:51
flexibility on what he was able to do with the Investments it was retirement accounts you know he may not hold those
關於他能對投資做什麼的彈性，如果是退休帳戶，你知道他可能不再持有那些
29:58
anymore he might be holding some something totally different for me most of my stuff if not almost all
了，他可能持有完全不同的東西，對我來說，我的大部分資產，如果不是幾乎全部
30:04
yeah I think the vast majority of our investable assets is in retirement accounts so when I talk about a move
是的，我認為我們絕大多數的可投資資產都在退休帳戶中，所以當我談到一個操作
30:12
like you know tilting a little bit more into the NASDAQ or making these changes you know I can do them tax-free so I
比如說你知道稍微增加對那斯達克的配置或進行這些改變時，你知道我可以免稅地進行，所以
30:18
don't know um are those to me that's like the melding of
我不知道，對我來說，這就像是
30:23
decisions to set up those types of accounts but then the the discipline or the knowledge to to do that what do you
設立這些類型帳戶的決策，以及執行這些決策的紀律或知識，你
30:29
think the sub decisions right so when you guys talk to people and you're setting up a Quant strategy you'll
怎麼看這些次要決策？所以當你們和人們交談並設立量化策略時，你們
30:35
actually have the conversation about is this qualified money or non-qualified money right you help you help with that
會實際討論這是合格資金還是不合格資金，對吧？你們協助、你們協助處理那個
30:41
process for totally investors yeah yeah yeah and I and I I like to you know because we are more active
過程，給完全的投資人，是的，是的，是的，而我，我，我喜歡這樣，因為我們更積極
30:48
um if it's all else being equal you know the retirement asset should be what we should be managing we certainly manage
如果其他條件都一樣，你知道退休資產應該是我們應該管理的，我們當然也管理
30:54
plenty of taxable money but if I had if I have a choice if an investor has a million dollars and there's 500 in
很多應稅資金，但如果我有選擇，如果一個投資人有一百萬美元，其中五百萬在
30:59
taxable 500 and qualified you know it's like let us manage the IRA because there's not going to be any taxable
應稅帳戶，五百萬在合格帳戶，你知道，就像讓我們管理 IRA，因為那裡不會有任何應稅
31:05
transactions there so first the awareness of those two things
交易，所以首先是對這兩件事的認知
31:12
of just what's what's taxable and what's tax deferred because then that changes the type of strategy that you can have
究竟什麼是應稅項目、什麼是遞延稅項目，因為這會改變你所能採取的策略類型
31:19
that you can Implement because of tax drag and then how's it stack up over time so for Corey's situation and
你可以執行的策略，因為稅務拖累的影響，以及隨著時間推移其表現如何，所以針對 Corey 的情況
31:26
Corey's brilliant and everybody should listen to listen to his wonderfully named podcasts learning with models and
Corey 非常聰明，大家都應該聽聽他名為「Learning with Models」的精彩播客
31:31
read his research because the return tax stacking stuff is so useful in this in a disciplined framework for building
並閱讀他的研究，因為稅務疊加的回報在這種建立投資組合的紀律框架中非常實用
31:38
portfolios but this idea of like we see this all the time somebody's dad or grandfather or
但像我們經常看到的情況是，某人的父親、祖父或
31:45
grandmother or whoever is buying like McDonald's in like 1950 and now it's been put into a trust and it's just it's
祖母或任何人，在 1950 年左右買了像麥當勞這樣的股票，現在它被放入信託中，它簡直就是
31:53
a compounding machine so it's grown astronomically over a 50 or a 70 year period And when we see stuff like that
一台複利機器，所以在 50 或 70 年的期間內它呈天文數字增長。當我們看到這種情況時
32:00
it's like okay you have to go through the math of how are we thinking about this from an
就會想，好吧，我們必須進行數學計算，從
32:06
asset allocation perspective what's the contribution to risk and then how are we thinking about this from an asset
資產配置的角度我們該如何看待這件事？它對風險的貢獻是什麼？然後從資產
32:11
location perspective where's the thing held what's the titling in the structure is there any way we're ever going to get
配置（asset location）的角度我們又該如何看待？東西持有在哪裡？名義持有和結構是怎樣的？有沒有任何方法我們能獲得
32:17
a step up in basis if there's not what do we do do we self-create a dividend something Med Faber's written about this
成本基準的 step-up（ stepped-up basis）？如果沒有，我們該怎麼辦？我們要自己創造股息嗎？Med Faber 寫了很多關於這方面的文章
32:23
a lot do you sell some at long-term capital gains because that's the same tax treatment still as a dividend rate
你要以長期資本利得賣出一些嗎？因為這在稅務處理上仍然和股息稅率一樣
32:29
do you come up with a program for that it's part of the discipline process is to understand it the other thing just to
你要為此制定一個方案嗎？這是紀律流程的一部分，就是要理解它。另一件事是為了
32:36
tie it back into the the fourth turning and the generational piece too is as your life goes through those different
將其與第四次轉折（The Fourth Turning）和世代議題聯繫起來，就是當你的人生經歷那些不同的
32:43
phases there's also a huge mindset shift that happens between like we did with all the different
階段時，心態也會發生巨大的轉變，就像我們在為退休儲蓄的
32:49
phases of saving up for retirement then getting into retirement spending stuff down
不同階段，然後進入退休花費、消耗積蓄
32:54
not enough can be said about the mindset shift that happens when you have money coming in from a job
的過程一樣。當你有一份工作帶來收入
33:01
and you have a surplus on your cash flow and it's building some asset with tax deferral when you have to turn around
並且現金流有盈餘，正在透過遞延稅的方式累積資產時，與當你必須反過來
33:08
and now your cash flow is in a is in a deficit and now you're spending down an asset and in your introducing back the
處於現金流赤字，現在正在消耗一項資產，並重新引入
33:16
taxable liability of diminishing an asset that you've been saving into for a long period of time that messes with
減少一項你長久以來持續存入的資產所帶來的應稅負債時，這種心態轉變怎麼強調都不為過，這會困擾著
33:22
your brain and you really need people to help you think through this because back to that original point about how
你真的需要他人協助你思考，因為回到最初的重點，關於你的
33:30
your your decisions are going to change over time your discipline that idea of a North star that's going to shift with
決策會如何隨著時間改變，你的紀律，那種「北極星」的概念，會隨著你的
33:37
your age with your life with whatever's happening with you then that's a big deal because that active strategy inside
年齡、生活、以及你身上發生的任何事情而轉變，這非常重要，因為當那支401k退休帳戶
33:42
of that 401k all of a sudden when it has to start paying money out because you're retired you might have some tweaks to
開始需要支付錢款，因為你退休了，你可能需要進行一些調整
33:48
make in some extra considerations so true story it was like last week I was on LinkedIn and Corey had just
和額外的考量。說個真實故事，大概上週我在LinkedIn上，Corey剛好
33:56
posted like one of his podcasts and he has those cool covers I don't know who he interviewed but
發布了他的一個播客，他有那些很酷的封面，我不知道他訪問了誰，但
34:00
and so I was scrolling and I stopped and my wife walks in and of course she's like flirting with models like what it
當時我正在滑動頁面，然後停了下來，我老婆走了進來，當然她像是在調情一樣，說這是什麼
34:09
I'm like no no no this is a podcast I swear to God it was just funny I was like I always made me in trouble I hope
我說不不不，這是播客，我向上帝發誓，這真的很有趣，我說這總是讓我惹上麻煩，我希望
34:16
you're told I hope you told Corey that story I'm I'm gonna tell him I'm gonna send him a link directly to this part of
你有告訴（聽不清）我希望你有跟Corey說這個故事，我...我會告訴他的，我會直接發給他這段
34:22
the podcast and um so uh what about
播客的連結，嗯...所以，呃，關於
34:28
um what are your thoughts on sort of chat GPT and whether or not
嗯，你對Chat GPT有什麼看法，以及它是否
34:34
that could add discipline to the process I'm excited in chat gbt
能為這個過程增加紀律？我對Chat GPT
34:42
or AI to add discipline in the same way in a more advanced version of like the administrative component of decision
或AI感到興奮，能以更先進的方式增加紀律，像是決策中
34:52
making and I think about it like like the stuff that I have like the sticky notes that I basically
行政管理的部分，我把它想像成像是我有的那些東西，像是便利貼，我基本上
34:58
have like on my computer monitor and the note cards and things that I leave around my desk I like the idea of AI as
貼在我的電腦螢幕上，還有那些卡片，以及我留在桌上的東西，我喜歡AI作為
35:05
like a sidecar or something that can help me monitor the decision making in real time to nudge me to remember the
側邊輔助的概念，或某種能幫助我即時監控決策，提醒我記住
35:13
north star of what I'm doing because if if discipline is going to be that decision Plus North Star I think AI can
我正在做的事情的「北極星」，因為如果紀律是那個決策加上「北極星」，我認為AI可以
35:21
be promising in its in its ability to just remind us of what the North Star is within that
很有潛力，以其能力來提醒我們，在那之中「北極星」是什麼。
35:29
the other thing and it's it's totally a Phil tetlock idea is kind of the dream scenario for stuff
另外一件事，這完全是Phil Tetlock（菲爾·泰特洛克）的想法，是這類事情的
35:35
like this if you can have anything you want magic wand it's give me the how often is this person right or how often
夢幻情景，如果你可以擁有任何你想要的，用魔法棒點一下，就是「給我這個人正確的機率有多高」或是「多久一次」
35:42
is this idea right thing so if I'm about to go make that trade on the micro cap stock that I got sucked into the story
如果我打算對那支讓我被故事吸引的小型股進行交易
35:49
for like where's the thing that reminds me hey remember the last three times you
有沒有一個東西能提醒我：嘿，別忘了你前三次
35:54
did this and it was awesome for a few months and then they went bankrupt and you had to figure out the process like
這麼做的結果：有幾個月表現很棒，但後來它們都破產了，你還得處理後續流程
36:00
whatever thing is that keeps you if AI can be the thing that stands between me and stupid Bring It On
無論是什麼東西，只要能在我和愚蠢的衝動之間擋一下，AI 能扮演這個角色嗎？
36:07
do you see chat GPT or any of this stuff being useful like sooner than later in the in your processes yeah I don't know
你認為 ChatGPT 或這類技術，能很快地在你的流程中發揮作用嗎？嗯，我不確定
36:15
about in terms of like the time like I'm thinking about like how it's integrated into things like Salesforce or I mean
關於時間點的部分，我是說，我在想它要如何整合進像 Salesforce 這類系統，或者我是說
36:22
it's coming um and you know I could certainly see it probably is already there
它正在來臨，而且我完全可以預見，甚至可能已經存在了
36:28
um you know if you could set these things and they're the uh technologies that kind of do this that can like drip
如果你能設定這些東西，而現在已經有技術能做到這點，它們可以像水滴般
36:34
on people and nudge people and remind people and create an opportunity to have more conversations with clients which I
持續接觸人們、輕推人們、提醒人們，並創造更多與客戶對話的機會，我認為
36:41
think is always a good thing keeping the communication lines open but I I think you know that what you said is very
維持溝通管道暢通總是件好事。但我認為你說的很有趣
36:47
interesting imagine you can use AI to look back on all your sort of cycle through those past
設想你可以用 AI 回顧你過去所有
36:56
decisions to say you know was this a good decision did you make money on it because let's face it a lot of times the
循環發生的決策，來判斷這是不是個好決定，你有沒有從中賺錢？因為老實說，很多時候
37:03
bad decisions people don't really want to remember or talk about they kind of kick those over to the side and say you
人們對於糟糕的決定並不想記住或談論，他們會把這些推到一旁，然後說
37:09
know well it's you know I I didn't buy that stock it's that old thing about like a bad bad bad decisions are always
「哎呀，你知道，我沒買那支股票啦。」這就像那句老話：糟糕的決定總是
37:17
bad luck and good decisions are always suitable to your self-attribution bias right yeah so but yeah I think there's
歸咎於運氣不好，而好的決定則符合你的自我歸因偏誤，對吧？是的，但我認為
37:25
going to be a lot of interesting developments there and it'll be interesting to see if
未來會有很多有趣的發展，而且我很期待看到
37:30
I think we're a long way away from people totally trusting AI to give like Financial advice
我認為距離人們完全信任 AI 提供財務建議還有很長一段路要走
37:36
um that might there might be a time in the future but you know it's people are still going to want to talk to humans
未來也許會有那麼一天，但你知道，人們仍然會想和真人交談
37:40
and I think we talked about that in the podcast and to the degree that it can Aid in
我們在播客中也討論過這點。就 AI 能在
37:46
positively enhancing the decision process in terms of long-term discipline I'm I'm all for that bring bring the
提升長期紀律的決策過程方面提供正面幫助的程度而言，我完全支持，儘管拿來吧。
37:53
nudges that I can design myself not the nudges that somebody else is designing for me if we can design those those
我可以自己設計的推力，而不是別人為我設計的推力。如果我們能為自己或他人設計那些推力，讓我們能看到它的好處。
38:00
nudges for ourselves or for people in a way where it's you can see the benefits of it you know give me the chat GPT that
例如，給我一個 Chat GPT，當我打開冰箱伸手去拿冰淇淋時，它會說：「真的嗎？你今晚真的想這樣做嗎？」
38:08
when I open the fridge and go reaching for the ice cream it's like really really do you want to do that tonight
這位朋友，順帶一提，這可能跟我們之前做的 Pierre Maldina 那集有關。
38:15
man by the way this may play into just thinking about because I was thinking about the Pierre maldina episode we did
他在規劃者和投資者兩方面，針對各種因素都有很多不同的規則和框架。
38:21
and he had you know a lot of different rules and Frameworks for both the planning and the investor side when it
你知道，在某人的計畫中，有許多不同的東西可以優化。
38:28
comes to factors but you know and there's all these different things that you can optimize in someone's Plan and
還有子分類、子資產類別、子投資組合，而你知道，這實際上就是 AI 可能帶來機會的地方。
38:36
there's sub buckets and sub asset classes and sub-portfolios and you know that that's actually where you know
我認為 AI 在做這類事情上可能會有機會。
38:43
um AI might present an opportunity I think um in doing some of that kind of stuff
但你對 Peter 在這個討論中的一些想法有什麼看法？我非常喜歡 Peter。
38:51
um but what do you what do you think about some of Peter's thoughts relating to sort of this discussion I love Peter
Medina 的作品，我對 Michael Kitces 的作品也有非常相似的感覺，特別是在財務規劃方面。
38:58
Medina's work in the way that feel very similarly about like Michael kitsis do and for financial planning
對於財務規劃專業人士來說，希望這兩個名字是家喻戶曉的，當然 Kitces 和 Medina 我認為仍然值得更多關注。
39:06
professionals those are hopefully two household names certainly kitsis Medina I think still deserves more attention
他們非常棒，因為你可以深入探討任何主題。如果我想了解單筆繳費的即期年金。
39:12
they're amazing because you can go so deep into into any topic and if I want to know about single premium media
我可以去 Kitces 的「Nerd's Eye View」，針對任何奇特事物的每個範圍和細節，都能找到很棒的深入分析。
39:19
annuities I can go to kids this is nerd's eye view and find some great in-depth things on every single scope
如果我想尋求關於不同通膨環境下的投資組合建構，以及如何在通膨下思考估值倍數與提領策略的幫助。
39:25
and detail of some quirky thing and if I want help thinking about portfolio Construction in different inflation
Peter 有三篇、六篇或十二篇論文可以連結參考。
39:30
regimes and how to think about valuation multiples against inflation with withdrawal strategies Peter's got three
我認為當我們戴上顧問這頂帽子時，作為財務顧問最有價值的事情。
39:37
or six or 12 papers he can link to on the topic the highest value thing I think we do as
就是與人們進行對話，並找出哪些事項應該優先處理。
39:44
financial advisors when we're wearing this Consulting cap though is to have conversations with people and pull out
這件事，你知道，我只是...
39:50
which one of those belong on the priority stack and that's the thing you know I I just
我對此持保留態度，我還沒看過 AI 是正確照護的情況。AI 現在可能不應該當你的治療師。
39:57
I'm unconvinced them I haven't seen a situation where AI is the right care like AI right now probably shouldn't be
部分原因是它會一直編造東西，但也部分原因是...
40:04
your therapist and it probably shouldn't be your therapist part because it keeps making stuff up but also in part because
你的治療師，而且它可能不應該當你的治療師，部分原因是它會一直編造東西，但也部分原因是
40:10
drawing that out is that's human conversational stuff and I'm I'm thinking about some I'm thinking about a
深入探討這點，這是人與人之間的對話，我正在思考一個
40:17
client situation where we had a client's uh married so second marriage across different state lines a whole bunch of
客戶的情況，我們有一位客戶已婚，這是跨州的第二段婚姻，涉及許多
40:24
stuff where because it was a second marriage they're both thinking other families in a different way and
層面，因為是第二段婚姻，他們對彼此的家庭都有不同的考量，
40:30
there was a lot of stuff there was new estate planning there was new stuff to protect assets for kids there was stuff
當時有很多事情要做，需要新的遺產規劃，需要新的方法來為子女保護資產，也有
40:36
that had to be protected prenup style from prior marriages and prior situations and all the stuff that just
需要像婚前協議一樣，保護來自前段婚姻和先前狀況的資產，以及隨著年齡增長，
40:42
is life as you go on in years and it was a series of conversations to reverse engineer what order we needed to solve
生活中必然會遇到的所有事情。這是一連串的對話，用來逆向工程我們需要解決問題的順序，
40:51
problems in I don't think there's any way to get to the bottom of what order to solve
我認為沒有任何方法可以徹底弄清楚解決問題的順序，
40:57
problems in that's not the very human conversations of figuring out what matters to which
除非透過非常人性化的對話，去釐清每個人重視什麼，
41:03
people and then going eye doctor style this one clearer or that one clearer you know what I mean yeah totally yeah
然後像驗光師一樣測試，這一個比較清楚，還是那一個比較清楚，你懂我的意思吧？完全正確，是的。
41:10
yep so good point when you look at like that vast body of work that's Peter Medina is there
沒錯，這點說得很好。當你看到彼得·梅迪納（Peter Medina）的龐大著作時，
41:17
anything like do you look at that and you're like I just want this whole thing in a chat
有沒有什麼地方讓你覺得，我真希望把這一切都放進
41:22
GPT database so I could query and tell me what to do or how would you love to apply it with a magic wand
ChatGPT 的資料庫裡，這樣我就能查詢並告訴我該怎麼做？或者，如果有個魔法棒，你希望如何運用它？
41:30
I was thinking like more you know if you have like the idea uh
我當時在想，你知道的，如果你有
41:36
you have these like sub portfolios with different goals and different return characteristics because they're trying
這些不同的投資組合次單位，它們有不同的目標和不同的回報特徵，因為它們試圖
41:44
to meet certain liabilities and could you somehow use AI to find it's more it was more around the
滿足某些負債，你是否能利用 AI 來找出……這更多是關於
41:52
investment side of it not necessarily like the planning side of it and thinking about
投資這一面，不一定是規劃那一面，我在思考
41:58
um and I don't know if it was a goals-based planning part or where he talked about
嗯，我不知道是不是基於目標的規劃部分，或是他提到的
42:03
like the the tranches of the portfolio and lining those up to specific goals or liabilities in the future and
關於投資組合的分層（tranches），並將它們與未來的特定目標或負債對齊，
42:11
then trying to maybe use technology to back into different asset allocations that would meet those goals that's what
然後試著利用技術反推（back into）出能滿足這些目標的不同資產配置，這就是
42:20
I was that's where my head was going a little bit more but um I don't know you you know I don't know if that's
我當時……我的思路大概是在這個方向，但嗯，我不知道，你知道的，我不知道那是不是
42:26
and then kind of automating that rebalancing you know imagine if it was just set up so as time frames changed
然後自動化這種再平衡，想像一下如果系統設定好，隨著時間框架改變
42:34
and as asset class returns changed and as um assumptions changed you know you
以及隨著資產類別報酬率改變，還有假設條件改變，你知道你
42:41
might be able to get a little bit more sort of just natural automation happening in there through AI maybe but
或許能透過AI讓整個過程更自然地自動化
42:47
again that that is the the question of would an investor even be comfortable with that I mean that's not to say that
但問題再次來了，投資者是否會對此感到安心？我這並不是說
42:54
that's full proof a full proof or anything like that it's it certainly could make mistakes and it's the more
這萬無一失或什麼的，它肯定會犯錯，而且市場
43:01
the markets are uh you know very random a lot of times in the short run I
在短期內常常非常隨機，我
43:08
love the idea of that for for scenario analysis the way you just said it like that's
很喜歡你剛才提到的情境分析這個想法，就像是
43:14
so maybe the chat GPT advisor thing and the Peter ladina combination is we have a better way for a you a human to handle
未來的聊天GPT理財顧問加上Peter Ladina的組合，我們有了一種更好的方式，讓人類來處理
43:23
the different scenarios that we want to solve for towards that North Star in ordering and prioritizing and then
我們想要達成那個北極星目標所需的不同情境，進行排序和優先級排列，然後
43:29
checking because I think that's the biggest thing when I talk to other people about this across our industry is
進行檢核，因為當我和業界其他人談到這件事時，我認為最關鍵的是
43:35
we all want that Tony Stark super computer assistant right we want to be like I think this
我們都想要一個像Tony Stark那樣的超級電腦助理，對吧？我們希望能夠像是，我覺得這個
43:41
is this right and query some really smart people to tell me like what I'm set up for against this
應該是對的，然後去詢問一些真正聰明的人，告訴我我的設定是否能應對這個情況
43:48
and yeah and by the way we're just I mean what what I'm explaining is what these
而且，順帶一提，我剛解釋的內容，其實這些
43:53
Robo advisors are kind of doing anyway so there's nothing unique although they're not using AI to do it I'm
機器人理財顧問本來就在做，所以並不算獨特，雖然他們不是用AI來做，我
43:58
thinking the wealth runs and the you know the um betterments of the world yeah yeah totally and that's why we see
想的是像Wealthfront、Betterment這些平台，是的，完全同意，這就是為什麼我們看到
44:05
like behavior in sustained tricky periods gets murky fast uh just like with some
在持續的棘手時期，行為會很快變得模糊不清，就像其他一些
44:13
of the other ones where the incentive structures get messed up and that's that's really hard I think the human
案例一樣，當激勵機制變得混亂時，這真的很難，我認為讓人們
44:18
conversation that slows people down is still tremendously valuable and who knows maybe we find that out that that's
放慢腳步的人類對話仍然非常有價值，谁知道呢，也許我們會發現
44:25
maybe we're the last generation to Value this you think that's part of the support turning thing too not not closed
也許我們是最後一代重視這件事的人，你認為這也是支持轉型的一部分嗎？也不是不接受
44:32
to that reality which is we'll have to do a separate podcast something sometime on we'll do fourth
那個現實，也就是我們得另外找時間做一期Podcast，我們會做第四集
44:39
turning and we'll do uh Neil Postman stuff I like that we like I like that novelty or any of those books yeah let's
turning and we'll do uh Neil Postman stuff I like that we like I like that novelty or any of those books yeah let's
44:45
do it I like conversation okay that's fun so I gotta Kick this back now let's let's
do it I like conversation okay that's fun so I gotta Kick this back now let's let's
44:51
bring this home to you're a dis the reason I wanted to have this conversation with you when I found
bring this home to you're a dis the reason I wanted to have this conversation with you when I found
44:55
out it was just the two of us singing the song in my head again was I know you to be a very disciplined person with
out it was just the two of us singing the song in my head again was I know you to be a very disciplined person with
45:02
your athletic background and with the systematic investing stuff so I'm really curious you personally when you're
your athletic background and with the systematic investing stuff so I'm really curious you personally when you're
45:08
thinking about discipline in your own life and how discipline informs decision making this feels like it's part of the
thinking about discipline in your own life and how discipline informs decision making this feels like it's part of the
45:16
the Justin carvino DNA like I think it is yeah I think so I mean it's you know I think in certain parts of my life for
the Justin carvino DNA like I think it is yeah I think so I mean it's you know I think in certain parts of my life for
45:24
sure I think Fitness is certainly one of them um
sure I think Fitness is certainly one of them um
45:28
but I was this is gonna probably sound silly but when I actually thought about it and what I'm what I'm going to say
but I was this is gonna probably sound silly but when I actually thought about it and what I'm what I'm going to say
45:36
here is I think it's gonna make a lot of sense so I think when you think about discipline
here is I think it's gonna make a lot of sense so I think when you think about discipline
45:41
think about what makes a factor a factor I mean is your discipline persistent over a long period of time
think about what makes a factor a factor I mean is your discipline persistent over a long period of time
45:49
is it pervasive in the sense that you know are you doing it in like all aspects of your life is it robust are
is it pervasive in the sense that you know are you doing it in like all aspects of your life is it robust are
45:58
you focusing on the right I guess decisions um or
you focusing on the right I guess decisions um or
46:02
your yeah your actual actions are supporting the discipline um is it intuitive I mean okay saving
your yeah your actual actions are supporting the discipline um is it intuitive I mean okay saving
46:11
for retirement yes saving for your kids college yes I mean you know not having too much debt I mean yes I mean that's
for retirement yes saving for your kids college yes I mean you know not having too much debt I mean yes I mean that's
46:18
so and you know is it implementable so I think if you to me I was like thinking about what makes a factor a factor I'm
so and you know is it implementable so I think if you to me I was like thinking about what makes a factor a factor I'm
46:23
like well you can really relate that to like discipline and that's not that's when I'm taking a uh playbook out of
like well you can really relate that to like discipline and that's not that's when I'm taking a uh playbook out of
46:29
your thing like relating it to like a song or something even though we're Factor investors over here I think
your thing like relating it to like a song or something even though we're Factor investors over here I think
46:34
that's that's poetry I think you've just demonstrated you are the guru you are the Gangstar I love this for tying that
that's that's poetry I think you've just demonstrated you are the guru you are the Gangstar I love this for tying that
46:41
together yeah because exactly the same thing that that we do when we do the regression analysis and we are reverse
together yeah because exactly the same thing that that we do when we do the regression analysis and we are reverse
46:48
engineer what makes a factor a factor that's all it is that's just you're just teasing out discipline I I can't do
工程師，是什麼讓一個因子成為因子？就只是這樣，你只是在剖析出「紀律」這個因子。我無法解釋得更好了，我們就以「紀律」作為一個因子來總結吧。
46:55
better than that we got to go out on discipline as a factor well I've enjoyed this conversation Matt
好的，Matt，我很高興能有這場對話。
47:01
um we hope you guys have enjoyed it as well thank you for listening and we will see you next time
希望大家也聽得很愉快，感謝收聽，我們下次見。
47:06
thanks Justin hi guys this is Justin again thanks so much for tuning in to this episode
謝謝 Justin。各位好，我是 Justin，非常感謝大家收聽這一集。
47:13
you can follow Jack on Twitter at practicalquat you can follow me on Twitter at jjcarbonneau and follow Matt
你可以在 Twitter 上追蹤 Jack，帳號是 practicalquat；也可以追蹤我，帳號是 jjcarbonneau；還有 Matt，帳號是 coultish creative。
47:20
on Twitter at coultish creative if you found this discussion interesting and valuable Please Subscribe and either
如果你覺得這場討論很有趣且很有價值，請訂閱我們的 iTunes 頻道或 YouTube 頻道，或是留下評論。
47:26
iTunes or on YouTube or leave a review or a comment also if you have any ideas for topics you'd like us to cover in the
另外，如果你有任何想讓我們未來探討的主題，請寄信到 accessreturnspod@gmail.com。
47:33
future please email us at accessreturnspod gmail.com we would like this to be a listener driven podcast and
我們希望這是一個由聽眾驅動的播客，非常感謝大家的任何建議。
47:40
would appreciate any suggestions thank you
謝謝。
